tv Deadline White House MSNBC August 3, 2018 1:00pm-2:00pm PDT
busy hour to a close. you can find me on twitter at peter alexander. i'll be traveling with the president to his bedminster property. have a great weekend. "deadline white house" with the john heilman. >> it's 4:00 and i am john heilman here for the irreplaceable nicolle wallace. going to talk about the cloud of robert mueller over president trump's first day of vacation in bedminster, new jersey. his attorney, tv attorney rudy giuliani acknowledging to nbc news he may not be able to prevent mueller from questioning trump on the question of russian collusion which might mean real legal jeopardy for the president especially as his former campaign chairman paul manafort sits squarely in mueller's crosshairs. on trial manafort is for a fourth day in alexandria,
virginia. mueller's star witness, rick gates set to testify any time now. let's not forget, that's a man who has pleaded guilty and cooperating with mueller's investigation. we're getting more, new reports this afternoon that tell us mueller is circling roger stone who repeated he might be indicted by mueller very soon. that is a lot of cause for concern, especially if you're a president whose catch phrase has been for months, no collusion. maybe that explains this. donald trump vintage donald trump performance in pennsylvania where he whipped supporters in a frenzy where he attacked everyone and anyone on his enemy's list this week. >> now, we're being hindered by the russian hoax. it's a hoax, okay? even these people back here, these horrible horrendous people, even these people back there say, look, it looks like the academy awards or something.
you ever seen this? let's say i'm running against pocahontas or crazy bernie. i tell you, i have to hand it to bernie. i saw him up there the other day, that hair is getting whiter and whiter. i had obamacare done, except one guy at 2:00 in the morning went in and said, you know who that new leader is? maxine waters. very low iq, low iq. they can make anything bad because they are the fake, fake disgusting news. >> i'll tell you what's disgusting. anyway from outside the court in virginia where paul manafort is barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney plus another former u.s. attorney, the great joyce vance, assistant watergate prosecutor and jill wine-banks. in addition to the power house panel of lady lawyers we have
phil rucker, white house bureau chief for the washington post. all of them, each and every one msnbc analyst and/or contributor. great to have them here. phil, i want to start with you because you're in new york city. you get pride of place. i want to spend some time, if i had my way, we'd spend some time talking about the weirdness of donald trump talking about anyone else's hair, his hair getting whiter and whiter sort of blows my mind. his is not changing at all. if anything it is getting more and more orange. the thing i want to ask you about is donald trump's anxiety. he did not talk about paul manafort last night. he has started talking about paul manafort on twitter this week. how freaked out by paul manafort is donald trump? >> he's bothered by the paul manafort trial. he's bothered by the media coverage. he's been consuming it very closely, watching on cable news and he doesn't like the fact that manafort is being tied to trump. he feels like trump -- that he has nothing to do with paul manafort. he has nothing to do with the charges that are being discussed in this trial. and yet it's being covered --
>> can i ask you, how could he feel as though he has nothing to do with paul manafort? a man he's known for 30 years, has been in business with 30 years, political consultant -- chairman of his campaign, lived in trump tower, how can he feel that way? >> he feels the charges under review right now in this case have nothing to do with the trump campaign of 2016, with the element of collusion. he believes he is innocent, trump does. and he thinks that this is -- that mueller is going after manafort so aggressively, specifically to try to embarrass the president, to try to take him down, to try to harm his presidency and that the media is complicit, that we're going along with it and it bothers him. it has him really angry and he's been telling that to his confidants, they've been of course telling that to us reporters. >> i know there is a danger in focusing too much on logic when it comes to donald trump. but if paul manafort's crimes have nothing do with donald trump, why would he be bothered about the fact paul manafort is being prosecuted for crimes that
had nothing to do with him? >> he's bothered by mueller, the obstruction of justice, he fears his name sake son donald trump, jr. could potentially have some jeopardy here. he wants it all over. that's why he tweeted two days ago, jeff sessions attorney general needs to end the russia investigation. >> barbara mcquade, you are down there on-site in alexandria observing the rocket docket in action. we have been waiting for rick gates all day. we gather at this moment he still has not appeared. in the absence of that, i want to ask you, what are the headlines out of that courtroom today, number one, and number two, at the end of this first week of the paul manafort trial, how much trouble is paul manafort in? >> were, today we've heard solely from tax preparers. it's a little bit dry, but incredibly important evidence that's coming in. we learned about the failure to disclose foreign bank accounts. we learned about the understatement of income, for example, and we just had a witness admit under immunity that she assisted in reducing paul manafort's reportable income to save him about half a
million dollars in taxes. so, i think that's today's information. and over the week we have seen, in addition to the tax preparers, a parade of vendors who provided things like custom suits, luxury cars, home renovations, really lavish life-style and how those amounts were all paid with foreign bank accounts, not declared as income which it should have been. so, i think the government is putting in a strong case. it's very much a paper case so far, which is really helpful to a prosecutor because there's no cross-examination of paper. it comes in, it comes in clean. and, of course, the real drama will occur when rick gates takes the stand. we haven't seen it yet, we may see it today or next week. >> one of the things we learned yesterday was how broke paul manafort was when he joined the trump campaign. we learned a little of his credit score, for instance. it would have been hard for him to get a lease on a station wagon given what his credit score was in 2016. there's been a lot of dryness and a lot of paper. there was also some emotion in
the court today. i believe you saw mrs. manafort maybe shed a tear? >> yeah, you know, at one point when the tax preparer in very cold terms was describing the tax returns, describing the fact that paul manafort said he had no foreign bank accounts, at one point she left the courtroom and came back. at another point was dabbing her eyes. so, certainly when somebody's liberty is at stake as it is here, it is very dramatic and powerful. >> i'm virtually certain if my tax preparer were to testify that he knew nothing about my foreign bank accounts in cyprus, my wife would cry as well. i want to ask joyce vance a question which goes directly to one of the most kind of intriguing things about what's going on as we see all this play out, which is the way in which bob mueller is keeping some of this case to himself and then sending some of this case away. sending it to new york specifically. we've seen greg craig, ben weber and most importantly of course
the michael cohen matter referred up to the southern district in new york. meanwhile, paul manafort has a case that bob mueller wanted to handle on his own. i wanted to read you something from an aaron blake column in the washington post and get you to comment about it. cohen like manafort is widely viewed as someone would could flip on trump and is under investigation for things apparently unrelated to the campaign. the obvious difference was manafort was a key figure in the campaign and had existing ties to russian interests that could conceivably be involved in the case's future. while cohen may know derogatory things about trump, manafort may be viewed as a potential collusion witness. so, joyce, give me a read on that. >> it's possible that that's the correct take. manafort could be far more central to collusion between the campaign and russia than the bank fraud and tax fraud prosecution he's currently going through would suggest. in other words, mueller could have indicted the leading edge perhaps to convince manafort to
cooperate with him down the road. but manafort might still offer a great deal of help to mueller discussing, for instance, the history of financial back and forth between trump and russia. he can talk, of course, about that important june 2016 meeting in trump tower where the campaign met with russia. he can talk about meetings in the seychelles. he may even be able to shed some light on this change in the republican party platform as it regarded ukraine. so, he can be very central on the topic of collusion. there is, of course, a much more benign possibility here, which is simply that mueller has limited resources. he and his team trust prosecutors in the southern district of new york. there are strong relationships there and they may be using the resources in that office to amplify what they have the capacity to do internally in the special counsel's office. >> joyce, i want to ask you a question, sort of a question i just asked phil, but from your perspective as you watched again, we're at the end of the week, it's friday, we've seen
this first week of the manafort trial is almost over. if you're donald trump and you're donald trump's lawyer and you're watching what's played out in that courtroom over the course of this week with paul manafort, are you worried as donald trump's lawyer? a, are you worried, and b, if you're worried, what are the things you've seen this week that as donald trump's lawyer you would be most concerned about? >> you've got to be deeply worried. like barb says, it's a paper case and you can't cross-examine paper. it says what it says. it's evidence that the jury will have back with them in the jury room when they deliberate. the other problem that emerges for manafort from this testimony is now a string of accountant wets who say he either concealed his foreign accounts from them or they knew about accounts and helped him doctor his paperwork so it looks as though both on the tax fraud side and the bank fraud side of this investigation, he gets convicted. and then trump has to be worried about what happens next.
does manafort stay true, hoping he might get a pardon? or does he reach a point where he decides it's in his best interests and his family's best interests for him to offer some form of cooperation to mueller. and then, john, there is still an even more attenuated situation here, which is that if manafort is convicted, even if he doesn't want to cooperate with mueller, mueller could then compel his testimony. he could take him into the grand jury and compel him to testify because he no longer has any criminal exposure. i've done that before with witnesses. it's never great. you'd always rather have them cooperating voluntarily, but it's certainly a possibility here. >> jill wine-banks, i want to ask you about two characters who are some of the most colorful characters in this drama, roger stone and manhattan madam, kristen davis who worked for stone a period of time and has met with mueller's team. roger stone put out a statement, very similar to ones he's put
out in the past. kristen davis is a long time friend and associate of mine. i'm the godfather to her son. she knows anything about the 2016 election which was the subject of this probe. i am confident she will testify truthfully if called upon to do so. tell me, jill, as you look at the mueller -- at mueller -- he's continuing to behave to roger stone, not bringing in roger stone to this point, bringing in people before the grand jury or in to meet with ms. prosecutors. is roger stone destined to be indicted? >> it certainly looks like roger stone is a target, not just a person of interest. and i think that all of the facts that you've related show that that is why he has n't been called in yet. he is probably the person named in the hacking indictment against the russians as the u.s.
person because we know that he's the one who was in touch with gucifer 2. so that would suggest that he has more knowledge about the hacking and could be a key figure in the collusion part of the case. he's also, of course, as you know, been testifying today on air about the choices of manafort which is an amusing thing. he doesn't approve of his choice of clothing. and the only time i ever met roger stone, the first thing he said to me, i can't believe they booked me on two panels without enough time to change cloekts. i'm going to have to wear the same suit twice. so i can understand why he's commenting on paul manafort's wardrobe choices. >> roger is a bit of a dandy, that's for sure. i want to get to the question with all three of you of our lawyers here on the panel and i'll come back to phil at the end. i want to talk a little about the question we've been talking about the last couple days which is the question of -- been talking about it for months frankly, the question of the interview and whether or not it's going to happen.
nbc news is reporting that basically trump's team is starting to realize there is no way he might -- he may be forced to answer bob mueller's questions about collusion. the legal team facing the reality he might struggle to fight a subpoena over collusion. he can fight a subpoena over obstruction of justice, stuff he's done as president but he wouldn't be able to fight a subpoena over the question of collusion. i ended with you, jill, i want to stay with you. is it your sense that that's basically the president's team, if they are coming to that conclusion, that they're right to come to that conclusion? there might be a fight on a subpoena over obstruction, but they would lose a fight over a subpoena on collusion, so therefore they're sort of cornered on that part of the investigation? >> i think they would lose on both issues. i think that the watergate nixon supreme court decision which says you can subpoena a president for documents would equally hold to you could subpoena the president for testimony. so i think they would lose on both issues.
there is a crime exception to any executive privilege he might claim, so i don't think he's going to win on that. but i also may be the only one who thinks that his testimony is, first of all, wouldn't be credible because look at how many lies he tells. he's up to, what, 16 a day, it was at 6 a day. why would we believe his testimony? and two, i think that he has been colluding and i'm sorry, i just used the wordy said i'd never use. he's been conspiring with the russians and he has been obstructing justice from the very beginning in public, in plain sight. and so i don't think you need to question him about what his intent was to show his corrupt intent. his corrupt intent is already blatantly clear to me. and so i don't think it's all that important that if i were robert mueller, i'm not sure i'd be wasting my time on a supreme court appeal of whether i could subpoena him or not. and it's clear that his lawyers have given him bad advice on a
number of occasions and are just wasting time going back and forth. eight months of negotiating. >> i'd say a large number of occasions. joyce, i think you believe that the president might be on slightly firmer ground fighting a subpoena over obstruction than he would be fighting a subpoena over collusion. explain. >> well, i'm not entirely sure that that's true, john, but what the dilemma that the president faces here is if he complies with the subpoena, he will undoubtedly have to relay some facts that would tend to incriminate him. we know that from what we've seen in the public domain. and so his lawyers will be faced with having him appear to testify and then asserting his 5th amendment privilege to avoid testifying, to avoid incriminating himself. and although congress -- i'll just say has not had the stiffest of spines when it comes to disciplining this president so far. i think it would be difficult for them in light of a president
asserting his 5th amendment right to avoid testifying because he believes his answers would incriminate him in a criminal case. it would be very hard for congress to ignore that. so, in many ways, mueller wins simply by issuing the subpoena and forcing the president to assert the 5th amendment whether he goes through litigation over the ultimate question here, which remains unanswered, can you require a sitting president to testify pursuant to subpoena. >> barbara, given the extant facts and the brilliant analysis of your two colleagues here, what is the best play for the president with respect to this question, with respect to how to handle this "end game" now, what we think is the end game of the matter of whether or not he's going to sit with bob mueller and on what elements of the investigation he might want to try to restrict it to? what's your play if you're advising donald trump at this point? >> i would tell donald trump you don't really have to testify until you get that subpoena. and so i think that they are
telling one story to the public, that he really wants to testify and the lawyers aren't working it out, but that the truth is he doesn't want to testify in front of a grand jury and he doesn't want to sit down with robert mueller for an informal interview. but he can continue the negotiation up until even after he receives that subpoena. even after he receives the subpoena, he could still workout an informal agreement for an interview. i think he's going to play chicken with robert mueller. this is really president trump's opportunity to tell his side of the story and so rather than engage in litigation, it may very well be that robert mueller stands down before he serves his subpoena. i think donald trump is going to play the waiting game until that happens. >> one word answers, does donald trump really want to do this interview? >> yes. >> is donald trump going to do this interview? >> potentially yes. >> wow. okay you're outside the conventional wisdom on this. he i have to let these wonderful women go, the amazing barbara mcquade, astonishing joyce vance and remarkable jill wine-banks. when we come back so much for that show of force.
it didn't take donald trump very long to stop on the message from his top officials sending the alarm on the russia threat why his latest rant about the so-called russia hoax might be one of his most unnerving so far. also ahead, trump's interesting -- that's a euphemism, interesting relationship with the truth took an even more bizarre turn last night. we'll show you the latest in the increasing pace of lies coming from this president. plus the attacks on the press. threats of government shutdown. is this really donald trump's midterm strategy? we'll talk about that in a second. hundred roads named "park" in the u.s. it's america's most popular street name. but allstate agents know that's where the similarity stops. if you're on park street in reno, nevada, the high winds of the washoe zephyr could damage your siding. and that's very different than living on park ave in sheboygan, wisconsin, where ice dams could cause water damage. but no matter what park you live on, one of 10,000 local allstate agents knows yours. now that you know the truth, are you in good hands?
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i had a great meeting. i had a great meeting. we got along really well. by the way, that's a good thing, not a bad thing. that's a really good thing. now we're being hindered by the russian hoax. it it's a hoax, okay. i'll tell you what. they wanted know walk up -- here's a podium here. they wanted me to walk up like this, son of a -- >> that was president trump doing a little boxing stuff and saying some stuff about russia last night at his campaign rally in pennsylvania. that was his first comment on the subject after five of his top intelligence officials held a pretty much unprecedented press conference yesterday in the white house briefing room to warn the american people about how dangerous the threat of american election is to this country. there are no signs last night that donald trump shares his own advisors' concerns or supports the russian threat or as
jennifer rubin writes in the washington post, no matter how hard coats, wray, bolton and others side step or try to put words in trump's mouth, trump never accepted he got elected with russian help and he is not about to make a personal all-out push to stop it in 2018. joining us now is msnbc news intelligence and national security reporter, the great ken dilanian. here at the table jess mcinto be and editor and msnbc contributor. phil rucker still at the table. so happy about that. phil, yesterday there's -- you got reporting yesterday all over the place. by reporting i mean white house sources telling reporters, the president wanted these five guys out here. he instructed them he wanted them to come out. we talked about it yesterday. ever since on the because is- his behavior and gut instivgt. there's no way he sent those people out. they went out as an act of patriotism. donald trump was annoyed by that, he doesn't believe that.
that's what everyone's gut tells them. his performance last night seems to back that up. what's the real deal? >> if he wanted them to come out there here and deliver that warning to the american people if he thought it was important for the american people to hear, he would have delivered it himself. he would have tweeted thisometh, he could have talked about it at his rally when he was talking extensively about president putin and what he called the russia hoax, but he never got into the actual threat facing the midterm elections here which is a serious enough security matter for his national security team to do that rare joint appearance in the briefing room. >> i want to play a little sound yesterday from the thing. we played it a lot yesterday. it was an extraordinary thing to see these five up there saying what they had to say. let's play it and hear what they had to say about 2016 versus 2018 and what that might have triggered in donald trump. >> russia attempted to interfere with the last election and continues to engage in malign influence operation s to this day.
>> our adversaries have showed they have the willingness and capability to interfere in our elections. >> they stepped up their game big time in 2016. >> so these guys are saying that it was really bad in 2016. it might not be quite as bad in 2018, but they feared in 2016 the kind of pimplication there s they helped donald trump. isn't it possible, as you put your psychologist hat on, isn't it possible donald trump does not like that message because it undercuts pretty much everything he believes about his own victory that he did it on his own? >> it's possible. it's also possible it is now explicitly internally administration policy to speak out of both sides of your mouth on all sorts of controversial issues. it used to be that presidents would sometimes get ahead of policy and then it was the job of cabinet secretaries and stuff to walk them back, to quiet the -- to quiet things down, that kind of thing. this is an entirely different
thing. we have people in the cabinet saying one thing, the president saying the opposite. i don't believe that you can assume that that's not a deliberate strategy. it could be a deliberate strategy. in other words, they're on the record saying that the russians interfered and trump is on the record saying that it's all a hoax. and both things are true at the same time in this administration. no one has ever done this before. it doesn't mean people aren't going to be doing it now from time immemorial. >> they both cannot be true. >> they cannot be truth. >> to be clear. >> they can be true in this regard. russia could have attempted to interfere with 2016 and not been all that effective in doing so, and therefore would not have had an effect on trump getting elected and could interfere and be interfering now. >> if he admits that the russian story is not a hoax, therefore bob mueller's investigation is warranted and justified. it's than simple. he has to keep saying hoax -- >> absolutely it's that simple.
you cannot believe there is a russian threat and russians interfered in our election in 2016 and that the investigation into that threat is a hoax. those two things are mutually exclusive in a logical mind. i am not sure that that is what we are doli we are dealing with when it comes to president trump. i'd like to think that extends to most of the administration. perhaps john is right. this is what they have decided they need to do in order to deal with the fact they captain control what their boss is going to say at any given moment. >> here's the thing of all the things that happened last night that was the crazy est and goes to the thing two things can't exist at the same time. let's play this out what donald trump said yesterday about vladimir putin and what vladimir putin actually said. >> i'll tell you what. russia is very unhappy that trump won. that i can tell you. but i got along great with putin. and everybody said, wow, that was a great -- that was great. >> president putin, did you want president trump to win the election and did you direct any of your officials to help him do that?
>> translator: yes, i did, yes, i did. because he talked about bringing the u.s./russia relationship back to normal. >> ken dilanian, j. pod has a flexible notion how time space continuum works and two truths can exist in them. i believe you would agree with me what we just saw right there was the president blatantly lying and the tape demonstrating it. am i right about that? >> i agree with you. but i also agree with john that it may very well be a deliberate administration policy or at least deliberate donald trump policy to put his intelligence officials out there and then go feed red meat to the base. don't forget, this wasn't just a warning to the american public. they were all under some pressure here. there's been a series of stories in recent weeks including our own at nbc news, pointing out there is no trump administration strategy to protect the midterm elections from interference. and there were also stories that some democratic senators had been hacked presumably by the russians and there have been stories about ongoing russian
malign influence campaign. so the government is under a bit of pressure, i don't know if bill shine, the former fox news executive was involved in helping put this thing together, to sort of explain what are you guys doing about this? and there were some blatant spin that -- and falgs hoosehoods perpetrated by john bolton who asserted from the moment donald trump took office he had a coherent strategy to counter foreign election interference. it is threw there are patriots in the room, intelligence officials who want to do things, are doing things, they're not getting leader should infrat oval office. it remains to be cesarean whether donald trump is going to empower the national security agency and u.s. cyber command to take substantive action to stop the russians. >> ken, one last thing here. it's not just that they're not getting leadership from the president. they are being directly contradicted and flouted hours after going in the white house briefing room. it seems like if you're going to take on this problem, you need presidential leadership. not only are we not getting
presidential leadership, but you're getting something that looks like a split within this administration that under any normal administration would cow us one of those five people to quit. >> you're absolutely right. i have to catch myself sometimes. you sort of almost discount that. but it is very important and, in fact, many of those officials were asked very pointed questions by journalists confronted with these comments by donald trump. what could they say? they punted. chris wray, all he could say is the fbi is going to abide by our oath. that's an oath to the constitution, not donald trump. they know what's going on here. they're in a horrible position. they're trying to do their jobs to protect the country from what they call an information g information war by russia. that whole summit with putin was a slap in the face to their conclusion that russia attacked our democracy and is continuing to do so. >> we're running out of time. but a quote from my favorite movie. put the buzzfeed story up to go back to the view, the headline says, remember trump's tweet that said had hes what pulling
out of the g7 summit agreement? u.s. officials ignored. they're ignoring the tweets of the president one source said. it's like there's a reality tv president in his own bubble thinking he controls stuff. it's like the true man show. your argument is we have a truman show presidency, he's rattling around thinking he's doing stuff and the government says we're doing something totally different. whoever that guy is pay no attention to that guy behind the curtain. >> i don't know this isn't -- again, let's go do deliberate. he knows the administration has to say, acknowledge the reality that they are getting floods of information every day that there are cyber threats, efforts pushing, you know, from abroad. but he wants to make the case that the mueller probe is illegitimate. so he's doing that and he can say, you do this and then when it's inarguable that the rau russians are doing it, they can say, we told you. we had that great press conference. >> that is the most cynical
thing i've heard in my life. he's not the man behind the curtain, he's the man in front of the twitter machine. ken dilanian, you're awesome. have a great weekend. >> you, too, john. >> bash the media, jab the democrats, mix in some lies, rant about bob mueller and the crowd goes wild! but is that actually enough to win a midterm election? we'll answer that after this break. ♪ a hotel can make or break a trip. and at expedia, we don't think you should be rushed into booking one. that's why we created expedia's add-on advantage. now after booking your flight, you unlock discounts on select hotels right until the day you leave. ♪ add-on advantage. discounted hotel rates when you add on to your trip. only when you book with expedia. gives skin the moisture it needs and keeps it there longer with lock-in moisture technology skin is petal smooth
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that is the basic formula, part of a larger strategery. is throwing red meat enough to maintain congress this november? philip bud of the washington post wrote about the crowd at the rally. one thing was very clear. the people there were there to see trump, not the people trump was stumping for. there were more overt supporters of q anon than republican gubernatorial scott wagner who was the reason for trump's visit. one guy with the lou sticker didn't want to talk. one woman in a scott walker -- former govern of wisconsin ran for president. joining us now, democratic congressman eric swalwell, member of the house intel and judiciary committees. at the table, my friend the reverend al sharpton, president of the national action nickell robey-coleman and host of
politics nation. great to see you, rev. congressman, we almost always have you on this program and on this network talking about russia and collusion, obstruction and judiciary and intel stuff. let me ask you about politics today. you're watching -- >> thank you. >> you're watching donald trump giving these speeches. they're kind of always variations on the same theme slightly different moving parts, different stanza, same chorus, same melody. is this the way you win in the current climate or if you're a democrat you're looking at this and saying, man, i hope he keeps doing this all the way to november? >> i think he's missing what most people care about and the president likes to say, no collusion, no collusion. and, john, the truth is when it comes to health care or extended paychex or making sure he cleans up washington, he certainly has not colluded with anyone to make that happen. i think that's what we should lead on and point out. i was just in western iowa for the last couple days with a candidate who is running against steve king. he's getting hundreds of people
in western iowa, a place we never competed before. i've seen that across the country. i think that's the energy that's going to help us win this november. >> for a little while, congressman, it looked like we could see in the polling earlier in the year we said blue wave, blue wave, it looked like things were tightening up in generic ballots, polls had republicans feeling a little more confident or not totally like they were totally doom struck. that has seemed to have swung back in the opposite direction in the last few weeks. republicans and democrats alike i talk to on capitol hill are bracing for the blew waue wave denying it's coming. what is your sense of confidence level in democrats retaking control of the house and could it really be a giant tsunami or is this going to be a tight-run thing? >> we have the candidates for it to be a tsunami. i met many of them, about 60 of them are under the age of 40. they're veterans, small business owners, doctors, many women who
have stepped up, 18 months ago never imagined they'd be running for congress. they see a wrecking ball president and they're inspired to help their community. i think we are expand being the map as far as where we can compete. when i talk to them, it's not about trump. one candidate said to me, he said in my district, donald trump is like smog. we know it's there, we breathe it, we see it every day. but that's not the focus. the best thing we can do is focus on health care, making sure that tax cuts help everyone and going after the corruption. so i think that's a winning message in each of these districts. >> rev, i have to ask you. a i was on morning joe this morning i got asked off the top. what do you think of trump's rally? it's getting old. this bit he's doing is getting tired. a lost of the public dynamics are against the republican party. this is going to rev up the 35% who love donald trump, but is this the way a lou bar lett o wins pennsylvania?
a district hillary clinton won in 2016, is this the kind of message that motivates the voters? >> you have to deal with the motive. he tries to discredit at these rallies, mutter and the preelle. he's trying to destabilize anything that comes out that may point to him being guilty of anything. so he wants to really bury in everyone's psyche, don't believe the press. don't believe mueller. so that's the motive. the act, though, is wearing thin. i said right after he was elected when i was a kid james brown, singer used to help my civil rights work. the first time he took me to las vegas, the difference between the lounge act and an act that goes in the main room, he says, you get attention in the lounge act. you do silly things because you're competing with people drinking and people talking and paying you no mind. but when you get on the main stage, rev, you've got to
perform because they paid $100 a seat at that time. and they want to see a show. he's a lounge act. and after awhile, even the most intoxicated patron gets tired of the lounge act and goes to another act. >> so, here's what he should be saying. it's august, right? he's got 4% growth, he's got another good month of job creation, unemployment is at 3.9%. republicans are facing head winds going into november. this should be a morning in america, i'm delivering for you, the economy is going well. employment is humming. and what is he doing? he's yelling about the press and he's screaming about russia. it doesn't make political sense. and it suggests you use the lounge act comparison. i would say he's a pitcher, he's in the majors. he's got a fast ball. he needs to develop a curve and slider and he doesn't have a curve and slider. >> it makes political sense if the only thing he cares about is getting out of the mueller investigation and having questions about russia stopped. that's all he cares about. we can tell because the
president has the bull horn of going around and doing these rallies which every president has. if you point back to obama, he pulled that out a couple of times to pass health care, the stimulus, those were clearly his number one priorities. when trump uses the biggest megaphone that he has, he does so to protect himself from an investigation. >> but if he is trying to pro terkt himself, the thing he most needs to protect himself from is impeachment and that would mean trying to do what he could to keep a republican congress. >> he understands politics and what impeachment would entail. >> we're with to lose congressman swalwell. you're heading to oakland and throw out the first pitch. >> any advice, guys? >> do not pitch it, throw to the dirt. do not hit the bull on the side of the head. >> curve ball like donald trump. >> great to see you, congressman swalwell. still ahead, donald trump's brazen lies is nothing new, one in particular might go down as the most gratuitous and
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highways would take-two 1 years to get approved. we have it down to two years and it's going to be one year very shortly. u.s. steel is opening up seven plants. i'll tell you what. russia is very unhappy that trump won. that i can tell you. i raised 44 billion last year and you know i don't know if you know nato funding was going down. chain migration. and this was the schumer deal. schumer wanted this. republicans just passed the biggest tax cuts in the history of our country. >> okay, so every one of those statements was false, like provably false, demonstrably false. some were out right screaming outrageous lies. many came from the speech last night. lying and getting away with it has been trump's thing, his late
motif of his campaign and political life. people are asking whether we have entered into an entirely new era of trump lies. are we in full-fledged gaslight territory. here's how susan glasser talked about trump's lies in the new yorker. the fact trump historically unpopular with the american public as a whole has retained the 4r0i8 at this of 8% of republicans, the group at which his lies seem to be aimed, means we are in for much more. it may determine if trump is impeached by a newly democratic congress. falsehoods are as much of trump's political identity as his floppy orange hair and the make america great slogan. phil, rev, jess, john, you're all still here. i want to focus in a second about a very specific lie. but just to the table here. is it getting worse? it feels like it's getting worse to me and more gratuitous and more disgusting. maybe i'm some kind of -- what do they call them? snow flake. >> it's actually statistically
getting worse. at the washington post we have a fact checker that keeps track of all the falsehoods, the claims, misstatements from trump. he just passed the 4,000 mark this month. >> that's a lot. >> in his presidency. the pass is increasing. he raised a thousand, that's exponentially faster paced than his presidency which means he's much looser with the facts and much more willing to tell a lie. >> it's possible moore's law applied to chips, it applies to his lies. >> we've become accustomed to it. when i was going to school, everyone thought george washington never told a lie. we've gone from that to just counting and needing to have data collectors because it's so many of how many lies the president told. that is not a forward movement for the country's culture. >> where it gets truly insidious is when it's combined with the attacks on the press. if the president says under
normal circumstances, should a president say an untruth, we could disagree and point to an objective source of fact like nbc, like "the new york times" to talk about what is actually going on here. combining his lying with his undermining of the press means that you're losing the objective source of fact for this 80% of republicans that believe him. there's no way to reach him at this point. if he says this is true there's no way for me to have a conversation with my republican family members and say, look, this is where he says it's false because he's undermined that source. >> i see john struggling to constrain his contrarian instincts. >> i think you have to look at this in two ways, one of which is he's getting worse, the lying is getting worse, and reverend sharpton is correct that we are -- we're through -- we're across the bridge into something new, which is to say are
democrats really going to want to field in 2020 somebody who is, you know, righteous and proper and won't go down the terrible road that trump has gone down? no. what they're going to want is their own trump. they want somebody who can go toe to toe with him properly and not let him get away with it and let somebody lie for them. so that's the dangerous road we're going down. the other thing, though, you have to understand about republican support. it's not that they necessarily believe what he's saying, but they don't like you. they don't like you and they don't agree with you and they're not going to give you the satisfaction of telling a pollster that they don't support trump. you're the enemy to them, not the press. >> i just -- >> i'm sorry, i don't mean that. i just mean liberal democrats, the polarization of the people -- >> we all agree -- >> none of us are alike. no one likes any of us. >> what i'm saying what they do
like, they don't like liberals and they aren't going to give pollsters any grounds on which to say that trump is unpopular with them. >> so i've got to cut you off just for one second because i want to get in the way back machine. the reality is we all agree that it's getting worse. but the truth is there's a trump lie that goes back to the very beginning of the administration. in 201710 at the joint session of congress, i want to play the sound and we'll talk about this particular lie and what's happened with it in the last day or so. >> according to data provided by the department of justice, the vast majority of individuals convicted of terrorism and terrorism-related offenses since 9/11 came here from outside of our country. >> okay. so that's a very specific thing. he just claimed there was data from the department of justice that proved the thing he just said. ben wittes heard this and said that doesn't sound right to me
and started a process of doing the research. he went to the justice department and said i want to see this data that proves what the president said and the justice department has come back and said there are no responsive records that the justice department has, no data that supports what trump said in that speech. so to me there is something kind of special about that. your first big speech as president of the united states in the well of the house of representatives, the biggest speech you're going to give as president to that point. to go out and not just tell a lie but cite the department of justice and say there are statistics to support one of the most controversial parts of your early administration, which is the travel ban. now it turns out that it's totally made up and that the justice department is willing to come out and say that it's totally made up. this to me strikes -- maybe i'm again a snowflake. but this strikes me as kind of extraordinary. no? >> no, i think it is extraordinary. and i think the danger is it
feeds into his anti-immigrant profiling of people from other places to say this and to act as though the justice department in some way has certified this. it feeds into this kind of xenophobia that he represents, which makes it dangerous. and before we discount that a lot of the republicans that are listening to him are saying, well, i don't necessarily believe him but i don't like you, i agree with john podhoretz that they don't like us for different reasons, but he's winning everyone he endorses in the primaries despite the lies because he's hitting the xenophobia and the bigotry on things that a lot of them support. and that i don't think we want to come to terms with. >> on the basis of your reporting what you know about donald trump's psyche, what is it that makes him think that he can get away with that lie. dr. house used to say that, everybody lies. but to be able to do that at a
joint session and cite statistics that simply do not exist, what makes him think he can get away with that. >> i mean he's lied throughout his life, throughout his career and not really faced consequences. he also creates sort of an alternate reality in his mind to the point where he thinks it's true. if he repeats it enough time and he hears it, reinforced from his advisers enough times, he starts to believe that's the reality and you see it on issue after issue after issue. >> can i be a snowflake? i was a speechwriter 30 years ago in the reagan white house. if you had an idea how rigoro rigorously every single fact was checked. >> we'll be right back.
now, this is not something we would normally cover here at "deadline white house" but nicolle is away, it's friday and it reminds us of a simpler time before there was only one story taking up ought the news on the air waves. this massive herd of goats wreaked havoc in boise, idaho. it got a lot of attention online. residents were unsure where they came from. there's a business nearby that dispatches the goats to clear weeds and keep plants from growing in certain areas. the goats had somehow escaped. authorities were able to wrangle them. for me, this is the thing i miss about jon stewart. phil, where do you look for your moment of zen? >> i think if nicolle were
watching she's like them too. >> actually all of you guys, phil rucker, reverend al, jess, john, you guys are all goats of a way and my goat we mean the greatest of all time. that does it for this hour. i was in for nicolle wallace. she will be back next week and you all will be glad. speaking of g.o.a.t.s, "mtp daily" starts now. >> heilemann, you got me to quickly google the men who stare at goats. do you remember that movie? i thought it was going to be extraordinarily funny and, well, i can't quote a single line from it other than the title. >> i can't believe you actually -- that is what this made you think of but i'm glad that it did and that's the kind of movie that you are the ultimate netflix customer. >> john heilemann, i think of you as one of the men who stare at goats. >> have a great weekend, chuck. >> thank you, sir. if it's friday, is the president feeling the